Divorce-Proof Habits

Full transcript

Welcome back everyone to the Anthony Damon Show. Today we have a great guest on, a little spin on my cousin. I don't know if she wanted me to say that on live or not, but we're doing it anyway. Welcome, Shannon. It's a pleasure to have you on.

Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

So a lot of people don't know this, but I was doing some research on you. Super lawyer and recommended in 2026. Top 5% divorce attorney in across the nation.

Wow.

Which was pretty incredible to see.

I did not know that. I don't do, I don't even actually look myself up, so wow.

Yeah, pretty amazing. Graduated in 2008.

Yes.

From law school?

Yes. No, I know. I think it was 2006 from law school.

It was off by two years. I'll take it.

Yeah.

But we're going to talk about divorce.

Yes.

But more importantly, how not to get divorced.

Okay.

So the first question that I have for you is why do most people get divorced? What do you see every day?

So a lot of times from when I'm uh most of my clients are getting divorced based upon certain personality types. So we see, at least in my area and in my practice, uh, people that suffer from narcissistic personality disorder. I find that that tends to be uh the biggest cause of people getting divorced. Um with that comes along a lot of people suffer from some sort of uh either alcoholism or just some sort of vice that goes along with it. It's uh it's a very difficult personality to deal with. Um and again, it's you know, they it tends to be in a very abusive personality. So a lot of my clients and they are female and and men, and uh that's what I find to be the the biggest the biggest cause of it. Um, you know, you you brought up one way to kind of not get divorced, and that's to pay attention.

So what do you look for then? Because a lot of people, I'm sure, that are listening to this are thinking about getting married or are engaged already. How would you know how to look for that personality type and should you just avoid it, or is there ways to cope with it?

Well, that's an excellent question. I mean, it depends on how the person themselves want to handle it, right? So um most people are not self-aware, right? So um a lot of times they don't realize that they have that type of personality disorder. Um, if you suffer from any type of addiction issues, um then you should try to seek help, right? Um and a lot of times, not all the time, but a lot of times that does go hand in hand with narcissistic personality disorder. Um if somebody is very um controlling, if somebody tries to keep you away from your loved ones, uh that's also um a red flag there. Um they want that person all to themselves, they don't want that person to have a support system, they want to be in control of everything, those are things to look out for. Those are some red flags uh beforehand, right? And if you see that and you don't address it beforehand, then um it could only get worse. A lot of times, however, people don't realize it until after they get divorced because a lot of times with that personality disorder, they can I hate to use the word hide it, but there's ways of concealing it. They used um love bombing, so they'll make you feel like the most important person in the entire world. And you would never ever know that this person has that type of personality disorder. Um and sometimes a lot of people don't realize it until after the fact, until after they get married. Uh, sometimes it's years afterwards, and it starts showing little by little by little until the point where they're really starting to now feel it in their divorce. I mean in their marriage. Um I always believe that people should come to me as their last resource, right? You should always try and make your marriage work if you can. So go see a therapist, go speak to people, you know, um, speak to your family members, speak to your friends, speak to, you know, always try to have that outlet. Um, again, especially if you can seek marriage counseling beforehand, I should be your last resort with respect to things of um that nature.

Is there a specific sex that either one is more likely to have the trait? No. Or is the one that more likely to file for divorce first?

Nope.

Straight across the board.

Nope, straight across the board.

And out of most people you see, that's the personality disorder that's more likely to end up down that route? Is uh so like when you let's say you're going on a date with someone, right? What are some questions you could ask then?

Can't it's it's so it's so hard to initially figure out that that's what it is. It's really just getting to know the person, and sometimes it just can it can take a while to figure out. Yeah.

That's so interesting. I didn't know you were gonna go that way.

Yeah, yeah. No, I know. Most people think it's it's based upon you know cheating and so forth. Um, and don't get me wrong, that still is up there, but it's it's not as much.

Well, cheating, even just to graze on it because it is important, at least what I've learned, is it's always a secondary effect.

Yes, I agree. I agree. So again, um what I wanted to say, and I think I I I said before, was you just gotta make sure that you always pay attention as well. I I think a lot of people, the longer that you go on in a relationship, you forget to focus on one another, right? So you gotta make sure that you do that. Pay attention to one another, pay attention to the needs of the other person. And that is like the best advice that I can give to people, you know. Uh I just think that people get too comfortable and they forget to pay attention.

I also think a big problem that I've seen talking to people, I think relates perfectly to this is one, there's different types of narcissism. Right? It's most people think it's the boistful type of narcissistic personality sort, but the things like being covert narcissists, right? It more comes across as like loving, but it's very clingy and trauma-backed.

Right.

And there's different personality traits that way. That's that's one. The second avenue is it's finding out where the values are and lie, and that's kind of what I want to go next. Sure. Is who's more important in a marriage? Your spouse, your kids, or your parents that gave you birth?

I mean, I think family just in general is important. And I mean, I've been married for, I mean, I've been with my husband now for like 26 years. And I have to say that, you know, each and every one of those is is important.

Oh, agreed. But I don't think that there's loyalties.

There's no, again, so obviously you're gonna love your kids unconditionally. You know, I mean, that's just I mean, my husband, again, I love him more than words. So when it comes to his parents, I I I don't know, like I view his parents as my parents. So I I can't, you know, like to to me, all of them are important. I can't choose, I I don't, I don't know what you mean as far as like, you know, who I would put as number one, number two, number three, because again, I I view his parents as my own.

Right. So I the kind of the tailing at is when you look at personalities and you look up how people counteract, it's they try to make themselves more important than someone else. Like a good example you can see is parents will try to make themselves more important than someone's spouse.

Or see, I've never had that.

Well have you're married to your spouse, they'll put their kids before their spouse. In the sense that even the silly things like kid wants ice cream, mom says no, kid goes to dad. Dad says, Yeah, we'll go get ice cream. Okay, isn't that underlying that faith and you build up distrust in some of the things?

Yeah, but that's not that's not really anything that that affects like the overall long-term all the time. You're always gonna have it where the kid's gonna play both parents and be like, hey, you know, I want I want ice cream, dad says no. I mean, do I think that you should have a unified front? Absolutely. If you can do that, absolutely. And my and my husband and I do try and do that as well. Um, where if dad says no, I I support him a thousand percent, and vice versa. You know, we do try and do that. Um, you know, I mean, every once in a while will I sneak him ice cream still? Yeah, will my husband do that? Sure. But do I think that that's gonna, I don't think that that really truly affects the marriage. I just think, you know, that's those are things that you do for your kid just to kind of spoil them a little bit, like, all right, here you can have a little bit of ice cream. Yeah, I agree.

I agree with you. My point is overall and controlling aspect of it.

I don't have, I don't see, I'm lucky enough where I'm blessed with my in-laws, where my in-laws don't input themselves into my marriage at all. Okay. So I don't have to worry about that. Like they look at it like, you know, we did our job, we we we raised our son, and you know, these are this is this is your child, and you get to raise them however you want to. And you know, obviously they're there to to love and support my son and to teach him values as well, but they don't overstep. So if that's what you're trying to get at, yeah, I don't think, you know, I've never had that with my in-laws.

So to get a step back, let's say you don't have any kind of personality disorders, you were you're married, you're trying to keep that marriage moving forward. What are some things you should avoid doing outside of the obvious? Like don't go have an affair and et cetera. What are some ground rules you could set in a marriage maybe that may help build that marriage the long term and set it up for success?

I think it's important, especially if you have kids, to make time for the two of like the husband and wife, maybe, you know, it doesn't even have to be every week, but like at least once a month, maybe have a date night, you know, and and do things of that nature. Is that what you're asking me?

Yeah, what isn't it's avoidant to do?

Yeah, I think that that's what I think that that's helpful in in making a marriage um more secure.

Is there anything else besides a date?

Um I mean, doing things as a family itself, you know, um, trying to designate time. Look, in in this day and age, I think most people need to work a lot, right? I mean, I'm I'm very guilty of it. I work, you know, six days a week. My husband tends to work six days a week. Um, but we need to we we do our best to make sure that we also have those like family, the family time as well, that we, you know, will cut out and say, okay, well, we're gonna go hiking, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. So we have to, we always make sure that there is that there. Um, so I think that also helps as well. Um, I think taking time for yourself is also very important. That it can't just always be family, family, family. I think everyone also needs some, you know, uh because most people work and most people, you know, if if you're dealing with your family life as well, you need time for yourself as well. And that sometimes can just be like going to the gym. I think that to me is one of the most healthiest things that you can do is just to like get out all the stress, have that time for yourself. And if you can't get to the gym, go hiking, go walking, do just do something, you know, just for yourself. Does is is that like kind of in response to your question?

Yeah, it actually is funny because I'm thinking about we did an episode a month ago, two months ago.

Okay.

And Yao was interviewing me about my marriage.

Okay.

And different things are related to it, and then we've talked about it in back and forth couple of record, you guys go look. But one of the things that I find so interesting that you mentioned about taking care of yourself, I'm gonna give you a little story that I just want your feedback on the story.

Sure.

So I went home to Sarah Wundaggy for no context, and I was just like, Sarah, are you independently happy without me? She's like, What do you mean? I was like, take me out of the picture. Are you independently happy? And she's like, Yeah.

I think you have, yes. I think that's I think you have to be, yeah. I think you need time for yourself as well. I think, I think it's so very important.

But it but can you elaborate on that as looking for so why is so people look at that and go, wait, no, you should make each other happy. I disagree completely. I think you should be independently happy and then make each other even at a whole new level.

Well, I think it kind of goes hand in hand, don't you? I mean, in order to make each other happy, I think that you each have to have, like, you know, I believe my husband will do things on his own with his friends, um, because he, those are things that interest him and those are things that make him happy. And I have no issue with him going away for a weekend and doing that because he should do it. He should have time for himself, he should have time for his friends. He, I mean, just independently and with me and my girlfriends, if we want to go away to, I don't know, go to some like yoga thing or do whatever it is that we want to do, my husband is for it. He and he thinks it's healthy to do something like that. Because we both need times where we need to just decompress. And if and if doing that is gonna help us, then it again, it makes our marriage better. You know, I mean, we trust each other enough where, I mean, if he wants to go away with his friends, why would I care? I mean, I mean, it's something that makes him happy, you know, like it's something that if if he wants to do, if he wants to go hunting or or just doing different things with his friends, why? Why would I get in the way of something like that? And vice versa. You know, you have to also have some independence on your own, like an independent life. But again, as long as you make time for family, you know, there also has to be that family unit. You have to just learn to balance it. It's not like we do this all the time, but I feel as though it is necessary.

So take the example, let's say your husband decides, or someone's husband, wife. They don't either, they either A don't want them going to the gym.

Okay.

Or B, they don't see the value in going to, or they watch their spouse start gaining 50, 60 pounds, they're eating unhealthy, he starts working out, you notice what what do you do as a spouse? If either A, they won't let you, or B, you're just noticing that the other person's falling off the bandwagon. What do you do as a spouse? Like, what's your role just in that?

Well, I think that there's something more behind that then. Especially, well, one, you have to look at the past. Um, you know, we're very active people, you know, we believe in being healthy and so forth. So all of a sudden, if I see my my husband now changing personalities and, you know, he's just gaining weight, no longer believes in exercise, no longer believes in any of that, then there's something more to it, right? So that's when him and I need to have a conversation, like, what's going on? Is it, you know, are you stressing out about something? Is it because there is something more there. And that's when if he doesn't want to go to the gym or or so forth, there's other things that, again, we have in common that he might like, which is hiking. And that's still a great form of exercise, right? So there's ways to kind of go about dealing with it. But I but I think I would definitely have a serious conversation with him because there is something more there to it.

So does that go against the stigma where it's happy wife, happy life? Is that something that people should adapt?

No, I mean, I think it's like I think it goes both ways. It's not just happy wife, happy life. It's both of you have to be happy in a in in the marriage, right? It can't just be about one person, it has to be about the two of you. You know, he has to be happy too.

So how does that look like on a functional level? That's what I'm like, what is what are some traits you notice that shows that marriage is actually helpful? So I I've seen both uh a lot. I've seen marriages where one of them always gives in to the other person in the sense that they fight and one person always caves and gives. Because that's the way it's supposed to get being. Or I've seen marriages where they might bicker for a lot longer and then eventually come to a conclusion to work together.

All right. Well, you gotta pick and choose your battles, all right? Like every person has to pick and choose their battles. I even pick and choose my battles, you know, because sometimes it's just it's just not worth it. It's just not worth the argument. We're just like, you know what? All right, you win, you win. Uh it depends, it really depends on the topic that you're discussing, right?

So there's oh but if that's the case, then it's healthier at that point to not have one person always opinion cave to.

No. It's it's not. No. Right? No, it can't be like that. It can't, it shouldn't be like that.

So it's worth having an opinion to stand up for yourself in a sense if you really think something's worth it to you.

You have to. You have to. Because let's say you don't do that. How are you gonna feel about it? Right? You just gave in to something that you felt is very important to you, you're gonna have that feeling of of kind of disgust, right? You're I mean, you're gonna hold in that, so why not just say how you feel about it? And if you again, you have to pick and choose your battles. If it's something that's extremely important to you, then you need to make your spouse known. You need to make it known to your spouse. And then see if there's any way that you guys can compromise. It of course it depends on the issue that you're discussing, you know? Um, whether it be, I mean, obviously the issues concerning the health and well-being of your children are obviously going to be something that's a little bit more um, I would say more important. I think the most important, right? Yeah, you know, conversations regarding that. I think, you know, you both want to be on the same page when it comes to things like that, right? Um, you know, as far as like the schooling, the education, what you want to do, how you want to proceed with things of that nature. Um, to me, schooling is very important. So even during the summer, you know, just today, I got books in for my son because he's going into second grade. So I'll start going through everything with him now, you know, just to make sure that during the summertimes he he doesn't lose some of the knowledge that he had beforehand. So I again, um it depends on what it is, you know. When it comes to your kids, I think that's one of the most important issues that you guys have to be alone. Aligned with, you know, on how are you gonna raise your kids. That's where you really need to talk, um, even before you get married, to make sure that your values and your soon-to-be spouse's values align with one another, right? So those are also very important conversations to have beforehand and during the marriage, and those may be conversations that you may want not you may not want to cave in on.

I I used to back when I was dating, and then when I first started dating Sarah, I'd get a lot of weird looks from women. And I did the same Sarah and she gave me a weird look, but she eventually figured it out. Oh, to interview them. Okay, like very, do you want kids?

Nothing wrong with that.

Do you want this? Like the big picture items to me?

That's smart.

Well, it's like if you don't want this, I'm not gonna fall in love with you because I know this will eventually fall apart.

Right. No, there's there's just yeah, there's certain things that you want to make sure that you're on the same page with. You know, I I there's nothing wrong with what you did, actually. Because guess what? If you guys weren't in line with big things concerning your kids, guess what ultimately may happen? Divorce. Right?

So let's talk about the the other side of it, because I think it's also important, especially when it relates to New York State laws when you're an entrepreneur, when you're owning a business, how does that walk us through like how New York State categorizes a business, for example? If Sarah and I ever get divorced, that's just we can use it as a I own this gym, she doesn't. How will New York State split that? Like who gets to run the business? What does she get certain equity of the company? Like, what are things to look for in relation to that?

Okay, so New York State treats businesses very different than any other asset. So New York State is an equitable distribution state. What does that mean? That means that it's just what the court deems to be fair and equitable. All right, so the longer the marriage, usually it's 50-50. However, when it comes to businesses, that's not necessarily the case. What we are seeing um under the case law is usually the spouse will get anywhere between 20 to 25 percent. Right? Um, and that is if let's say that they stayed at home, that they were like raising the kid, but if they have more involvement in the business itself, then obviously that could um increase their percentage in what they're entitled to.

So how would you let's say I'm thinking about getting married, how would I set myself up to make sure something like that? Would a prenup be an option?

Prenup would definitely be an option.

Or there any is there anything else I can do to help justify that like maybe down the line, like this business is mine, it's not a prenup because I know people have like a stigma to it.

It means it's not I you know what I think people used to have a stigma to it. I don't think that they are really as much of a stigma to it anymore. No, no, I don't.

But it's interesting, it does equity share. So the equity share, let's just like walk through it even further. Then would I have the option to buy her out of that? And at a fair what the court deems fair.

Absolutely. But that's dictated by a court mandate as opposed to So what they would do is they would essentially um appraise the business.

How would they appraise the business?

A forensic appraiser.

Okay.

Would come in, they would appraise the business and say, okay, this is the value of the business. And then they would deem what the value is and what interest she would have in it or he would have in it. Um, and then you can have the option of purchasing out her interest. Um you could always offset it against other assets and so forth. But again, businesses aren't really worth in a divorce action, they're not, they're not going to be at the same percentage as as all of the other assets. So some people like to say, okay, well, if we have a marital residence and then there's this business, maybe we can offset whatever portion that she'd be entitled to in the business from maybe uh buying out the house. Things things of that nature as well.

Interesting.

And what they do um when they evaluate businesses is also do what's called an income stream analysis. So what they see is with businesses, with especially with certain kinds of businesses, um, some of it is cash. So they like to look at the income stream of the parties just to kind of see how much money is truly being earned. So they'll look at the lifestyle as well of the parties. You know, some people say that their business will make around, I'm just throwing out random numbers. They'll say, oh, my business just makes $100,000 a year. But yet, or they're saying that they make from the business maybe $200,000 a year. But yet they're driving around, they have, you know, five Porsches. All right, chances are they're not really making that much money. Okay. I mean, there it's it's probably a lot more than that. So that's one of the things that they look at as well when they evaluate the businesses. They look at the assets, they look at the income stream analysis, they do all of that.

And what about trying to stay married to an entrepreneur? Because I think it's interesting to see the other side too. It's like someone like myself. I have really bad ADHD. I will be on vacation, I will be 24-7 thinking about business, focusing on business and hyperfocusing on a problem.

That has nothing to do with ADHD. That has to do with our family qualities and traits and how we are all obsessed with it because we are all guilty of this. I do the same thing. I remember being on my honeymoon and actually um taking calls on my honeymoon while, you know, for for work. Um every time I take a vacation, I'm always still on with work.

Um so how do you prioritize your marriage when you're always on with work? Because I know a lot of people, might be my co-host included in this question, that just put the business there because that's that's what makes them happy. You talked about making someone independently happy, right? Someone like myself, and I deep think about what makes me happy. This more than it might sound silly to people, but this makes me happier than anything in the entire world.

Okay.

And it's what I do outside of my marriage to make me independently happy. So, how could I pret my spouse or to the extent, like, listen, this is who I am, this is what I need. How do I get them to get that back in return to help keep our marriage going for a long time?

So, while I'm gonna just kind of talk about while you're away on vacation and you're taking calls and so forth, again, you have to do it because it's your own business, right? And your spouse needs to understand that, you know, there is gonna come a time where you're gonna have to do this. I mean, they just have to be understanding when it comes to that. However, you, and I'm not just talking about you, I'm talking about me, I'm talking about everyone in our family because we're all guilty about it, and I'm talking about a lot of other people that are business owners. Um, we need to make sure that when we're on vacation, we do set aside that family time to say, okay, yes, we are gonna be able to talk to the office and and do whatever it is that we have to answer questions, do, you know, and if emergencies come up, take those calls. Because I do it because I I care, you know, I care about my clients, I care about my business. My my area of law is something where there is always something. You know, there's always something that's going on. And when I'm away, I want to make sure that my clients are obviously taken care of. Um, but they're also, I also have staff that will also help me with it. And I will take out certain points throughout my vacation every day, and I will deal with work issues, and then I will take the remainder of the day and spend it with my family because I and I think that that's important to do. No matter how happy you are with your job, you still need to do that.

So I would just my actually argument against myself is that there's a difference between have to and want to.

I get it, but again, I I think it's both for me as well. I think I think I have to and I want to because again, I care so much about my client. You in my area of law, it affects every aspect of a person's life, if you think about it. Yeah, you know, it affects their children, right? It affects their livelihood, their finances, their business, I mean every aspect of a person's life. If I go away on vacation, I can't just forget about that. So, you know, would I love to just go away on vacation and never have to deal with it? Sure, I'd love to have that like just peace, but no, I care too much. So I I just I would always make that time. Because it makes you independently happy, is my um I mean it makes me happy.

Knowing you're doing something right for somebody else to be there by them, and that truly makes you independently happy, and that's the want because you want to make them happy.

I yes, I I I care. Yes, I care, and you do too.

Yeah, more than anything in the entire world.

You do, you care.

Want to do something above and beyond, and I think it's important to make sure as a reminder to your spouse, just like a helpful thing, like at least what I do, is I'm doing this. I will be stereotypical and say for us. It's true, right? This business gave me the opportunity to keep her home with the kids. That's huge. Now my kids get to grow up with mom around.

Absolutely.

I wouldn't trade that for the world.

Right. With a great mom around.

With yeah, fair. Right. With an absolute fabulous mom around. But it also, at the end of the day, was a dream I've had since I was five years old. And if I didn't do this, like you said, I'd be disgusted with myself. I would feel downright, I didn't knowing I didn't put it all out. And that's something my wife understands. That to bring it to the next level, kind of tying it all together, is to the point that when I wanted to give up a hundred times, there's been many, many times, I was like, I'm done. Sarah said, No, you need to do this for you. She didn't say no, come home, be home with me. She said, No. Get back up, push through, and go. I think that's what makes a truly strong marriage in in my eyes.

She's yes, that's exactly what she should do. And it just shows it's a testament to how much she loves you, you know, because she, you know, supports you, she supports your dreams, she's, you know, and she basically is saying to you, I always have your back, you know. That's the end that's a beautiful thing.

I want to ask you a question we ask everyone at the end. So I want you to put some thought into it.

Okay.

So the point of this show is to build accountability and to take accountability for things for yourself. So, what's something that you would like to take accountability for?

Okay.

That you've not publicly taken accountability for to make either yourself or your marriage better?

I need to take more time away from work and spend it with again. I work about six to seven days a week. So I need to take some of those days and I need to strictly spend um more time with my family. And I and I know that you know, I work way too much. And I go to work at seven o'clock in the morning, I come home, you know, late at night, and it's, you know, it's I it it hurts sometimes because by the time I get home, sometimes my my son is already sleeping. You know, and I need to just know when to quit and just say, okay, I need to go home. I've I've worked a lot of hours today, I've did a lot of good work today, but you need to spend time with your son because you I'll never get those days back. I'll never get that time back. So I know I need to do that. I know I need to actually say, this is what I have to cut off. You know, either definitely the amount of days I work without a doubt. Without a doubt, I need to do that. But it it but it also has to be the um you know the time during the week as well, because I I I need to be home, you know, when my before my my son falls asleep and and so forth. So I I I realize I need to I need to do better when it comes to that.

I love that. Guys, if you think that you learned something, please let us know. And Shannon, we got you an awesome shirt for coming on the show.

Thank you, and for taking accountability, and for taking accountability. So accountability. I love this. I love this. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure being here, and thank you guys for having me on today. So nicely.

Guys, don't forget to like, subscribe, share. Please let us know if you learned something this episode. We'll see you next time.